Amy Tran is wise beyond her years and absolutely CRUSHES this interview! She covers the "little t" trauma. Believes in normalizing men asking for help and checking in, … Helps us sort out our inner core beliefs. Her steps become aware of what we are thinking, identify the patterns, see our core beliefs… and change (err... heal!) "Awareness is the first step towards healing,"
Amy Tran is wise beyond her years and absolutely CRUSHES this interview! She covers the "little t" trauma. Believes in normalizing men asking for help and checking in, … Helps us sort out our inner core beliefs. Her steps become aware of what we are thinking, identify the patterns, see our core beliefs… and change (err... heal!) "Awareness is the first step towards healing,"
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Transcript:
0:00:05.8 Mischa Z: Welcome back, everybody to the Tools For a Good Life Summit, and I would like to welcome Amy Tran, MA... Welcome, Amy.
0:00:16.7 Amy Tran: Thank you, thank you for having me. Hello, everyone.
0:00:21.2 Mischa Z: Awesome. And quick I'm gonna read your bio and then we'll get down to the fun. Okay?
0:00:28.5 Amy Tran: Mm-hmm.
0:00:29.9 Mischa Z: Fantastic. So Amy is a doctoral student studying clinical psychology in Ontario, Canada, she has received intensive training to provide therapy as well as diagnose mental health disorders and autism in children and adolescents, she has trained in community mental health centers, hospitals and private practices across Ontario. You are also involved in research that examines how the use of smartphones and tablets by young children and parents may disrupt the healthy development of children. Before committing to become a psychologist, you studied visual and creative arts and your Instagram account @doodledwellness, @doodlewellness is where your passion for mental health and art come together, and I do wanna say that your Instagram account is freaking awesome, I just... Brings a smile to my face. And I love everything about it, and it was one of the ways I tracked you down. But let me continue before we get to that.
0:01:42.1 Amy Tran: Thank you.
0:01:44.4 Mischa Z: Indeed. You draw doodles on social media and create workbooks to make mental health resources and information more accessible to everyone. You're very successful at that. Amy's goal is to raise awareness about mental illness, combat stigma, share helpful coping skills, invite you to practice mindfulness and brighten your social media feed with a daily pick me up, and you will be completing your residency in Toronto next year. Correct?
0:02:17.7 Amy Tran: Yes. Well, next year academic year, but this year, September 2021, I'll be off the internship. Yay! [chuckle] Gotta check my pulse.
[laughter]
0:02:30.9 Mischa Z: And then once you graduate, you hope to continue working with youth integrating mindfulness into mental health treatment and advocating for more accessible mental health treatment.
0:02:44.8 Amy Tran: Mm-hmm.
0:02:45.9 Mischa Z: Alright, again, welcome to the Summit. And when I look over here, everybody, I'm just looking at your Instagram feed again, @doodledwellness, and you have managed to compile 154,000 followers. Does that surprise you?
[chuckle]
0:03:04.7 Amy Tran: It really does. I mean, even just hearing you say that number out loud, it's like, "What? Really? Like my account?" So it is surprising. Yeah.
0:03:14.0 Mischa Z: Yeah, I think what's really cool about it too, is there's a humbleness within it, there's a humbleness within your doodledwellness.com, your main web page, so I love that. I think there's so much stuff to talk about there, I like your most recent post, childhood trauma. Again, I'm just looking over here, so I apologize. Yes, childhood trauma can also be dot dot dot... And being in my young 50s and perhaps earlier in my 40s, being an A-type male, like a hard charger and all this, if I heard the word trauma, my brain would think, I don't have trauma or that's only this over here, but that's not true, it turns out. Maybe you could speak to that for a second.
0:04:10.8 Amy Tran: Yeah, No, I'd love to... I agree, I think most people, when they think about trauma, they think about what do we call, big T trauma, right? Catastrophic accident, natural disaster, abuse or neglect, and of course, those things are very, very traumatic, but I think also love is something that all humans want and crave and need, and especially as a child, right? When you're in that vulnerable stage, who do you depend on to receive love and to have your needs met? Well, the answer typically would be your parents, your mom and dad. But you can have an amazing relationship with mom and dad, they can provide you with food, shelter, warmth, but when there are certain dynamics that play out where you feel like you can't express how you're feeling, you can't share your thoughts, you have to be a certain way to gain approval, love or validation, then that's traumatizing because you are betraying who you really are. And when we're younger, we don't have the mature brain to be able to say, "Well, maybe mom and dad are just having a bad day, or maybe mom and dad were never modeled how to cope with my emotional needs."
0:05:38.2 Amy Tran: Instead, the small infant brain is like, "There's something wrong with me." And that core belief gets internalized and carries on throughout adulthood and that's traumatizing, right? To feel like we don't deserve love or cannot receive love unless we're certain people.
0:06:02.5 Mischa Z: Yeah, it is traumatizing. And yeah, so hiding your true self by fear of disapproval and to carry that habit into adulthood, right? Denying your needs to be strong for your family. When you say that, denying your needs to be strong for your family... Tell me that.
0:06:23.7 Amy Tran: Yeah. Yeah, so let me give you an example. So let's say you are the only male in the home and something's going on with your siblings, so maybe they have special needs or maybe they developed a drug habit or a serious mental health condition, and everyone starts to work together to help this person through, or maybe someone gets cancer, let's say.
0:06:50.8 Mischa Z: Okay.
0:06:52.8 Amy Tran: And as the young man, you're like, "Well, my dad is so occupied, he's not able to provide for the family because he's dealing with this or this, so I'm gonna be strong for the family. I'm not gonna talk about how scared I am, how worried I am, what I need." And you suppress that, "Oh, what? I'm fine, I'm totally fine. Let's talk about you, don't worry about me."
0:07:14.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and then perhaps you develop the habit of... I know I did [chuckle] of not learning how to communicate perhaps, or feeling that it was okay to be stressed out, or I guess to communicate that in a healthy manner, right?
0:07:33.8 Amy Tran: Right, totally.
0:07:36.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, another post that you have that again, I'm looking at over here is it's normalized men, and I love that, and it again, resonated with me being in my 40s, fortunately, I was like, I need to start figuring out how to express my emotions, how to cry, how to check in with another, how to ask for help. That's so hard. So maybe talk to that for a minute, normalized men...
0:08:07.6 Amy Tran: Yeah. The post, it says, Normalize men asking for help, checking in on each other, crying, sharing their feelings, practicing self-care and having fears and doubts. So I think that it again, it comes back to just, who are we? We're just human beings, right? So this concept of men having to hide their emotions, be strong, that vulnerability is a weakness, those are all just societal constructs that we've taken on, but they're really harmful because we're social beings and we need each other, and we ask each other for help. Checking in on each other that makes you feel like you're wanted, like you belong. Crying, this one is a really interesting one because crying is an emotional release, and in fact, when we cry, there is research to suggest that it can actually help your body bounce back into a place of equilibrium, but we suppress that, right? Sharing feelings, same thing.
0:09:14.8 Amy Tran: So having fears and doubts, like if you don't talk about that, then nobody really can reach out to you to help, maybe it gets to the point where you're suppressing it so much that you don't even realize it yourself, so it's just... I think that as someone who identifies as female, I'm very grateful that I have the space with other females to talk about feelings and to share insecurities. And with men, a lot of times, I don't see that, and I think it can be be very detrimental for your mental health because you have no one to talk to and emotions needs somewhere to go, but they're all suppressed in, or it comes out in other ways, like working too much, drinking, gambling, shopping, performance, right? Or...
0:10:12.0 Mischa Z: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good. [chuckle] Yes, thank you for that.
0:10:13.8 Amy Tran: So you're like, "Oh, I can resonate with that." Is that what you're... Yeah.
0:10:18.9 Mischa Z: Yeah, I think and my sort of the arc for me was, I've been lucky to, a good portion of my life to be on a growth trajectory, let's say, but I definitely think at some point as a male, I was taking in more emotions than I was letting out, so I was building for that pop, and then at some point I was... It leveled out, so I was taking in as much as I was letting out, but I still had a whole bunch of pent-up emotions for a lifetime of these seemingly non-traumatic things. And so when I hit my 40s, it was like divorce, both my parents died in rapid succession, career upheaval, and then I had another failed relationship and just... It was like the...
[vocalization]
0:11:18.6 Mischa Z: Right?
0:11:18.9 Amy Tran: Right, right. Yeah.
0:11:22.3 Mischa Z: And yeah, and so I spent a lot of time, I would say, I just say by the grace of God, finding healthy ways to cry, finding that safe space to... I found a community where it was okay as a male to cry and cry a lot, and so that really saved me and then started asking for help, and I think that can be hard as an A-type male it can be hard to ask for help so...
0:11:49.3 Amy Tran: Yeah, totally.
0:11:51.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, I don't mean to take this over, but I think that that leads us to a great point, if you've got a guy like me who's in his 40s, let's say, and I go through a divorce and one of my kids is like not acting like I want, which can be stressor and that can feel traumatic. Both my parents died and the financial stress and more failed relationships and it became evident to me that my... Like work my way through it, find more success, earn more money, whatever it was, was no longer gonna work. I needed different tools. I needed new tools. So given that scenario, my question to you is thinking of technology as a tool, 'cause you're clearly in tune with that. There we go. I know there's an app you recommend called Mooditude, right?
0:12:48.2 Amy Tran: Yes, yes.
0:12:49.1 Mischa Z: And then, I think you're also proficient in some CBT, some cognitive behavioral therapy?
0:12:55.5 Amy Tran: That's right, yeah.
0:12:56.7 Mischa Z: So, thinking of those sorts of modalities, what are the exact next steps you would offer someone like me? So I knew... Well, I would be headed in the new right direction that I would have positive momentum towards getting my life back on track.
0:13:15.8 Amy Tran: Wow, so, such a great question, but also such a loaded question, 'cause I just have so much to say.
0:13:23.9 Mischa Z: [chuckle] Good.
0:13:24.6 Amy Tran: So I don't even know where to start. [chuckle] Yeah. So how about we talk about, basically, how our inner core beliefs are created? So we kind of touched on this before, where we were talking about how our relationship with the people that we grow up with, like our parents, they form certain core beliefs that we have. So there are many more than this, but there's three main ones that I see and that are taught in the CBT framework. So the first one is that I'm unlovable. The second one is that I'm worthless. And the third one is that I'm helpless. So this is all operating on a subconscious level. So we all have some of these core beliefs. We have one or multiple, and then there's other one, right?
0:14:19.9 Amy Tran: So as a human, you develop compensatory strategy, so for example, one of my core beliefs is that I'm worthless. So I grew up around parents who were quite invalidating, they were Asian immigrants, just cold, never really praised me or told me they loved me. So me as a young girl, I'm like, "I'm unlovable and I'm worthless." So what did I do? I achieved so much, I just tried so hard, because that's how I got approval from my parents, not just, "Good morning, Amy. Love you," just like, "Oh okay, you've got a A plus, good job." And I'm like, "Yeah, this is the love I need." So anyway.
0:15:04.7 Mischa Z: Okay.
0:15:05.1 Amy Tran: Okay. So that gets ingrained and then I developed a compensatory strategy. So for me, it was working really hard, for some people, it may be the opposite, being really hyper-vigilant of cues that you don't belong, for example, reassurance seeking, whatever it is, there are behaviors that you do to protect yourself from coming face-to-face with that core belief.
0:15:31.8 Mischa Z: Okay.
0:15:32.6 Amy Tran: So then, that can be destructive, right? So I would say one of the most important tools at first is to become aware of what you're thinking. Because when we become aware of what we're thinking, we can identify the patterns, and when we look at the patterns, we can start to piece together what our core beliefs might be, and then that's when the actual work happens, is we have to heal that core belief because we have thousands of thoughts a day, that's the premise of CBT, and...
0:16:11.8 Mischa Z: And so quickly, a cognitive behavioral therapy, that CBT stands for?
0:16:17.4 Amy Tran: Yeah.
0:16:18.3 Mischa Z: Yes. Cool.
0:16:19.4 Amy Tran: Yeah. So let me give you actually the audience a brief overview of what CBT is. Do you think that would be helpful?
0:16:26.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
0:16:28.7 Amy Tran: Okay. So cognitive behavioral therapy, so there's thought and there's behaviors, and then there's feeling and they're all connected. So if I told you right now to picture a purple elephant, would you be able to do that?
0:16:43.4 Mischa Z: Yes, ma'am. [laughter]
0:16:44.8 Amy Tran: Perfect. And if I asked you to clap twice, would you be able to do that?
0:16:49.9 Mischa Z: Yes. Oops, one extra.
[laughter]
0:16:52.7 Amy Tran: Nice. And if I asked you to stop feeling depressed, anxious and doubtful of yourself right now, would you be able to do that?
0:17:01.4 Mischa Z: Probably not, no.
0:17:02.6 Amy Tran: Right. Yeah. So our feelings are harder to change, but what we can change is how we act and what we think. So if we can change those two things, because everything else is connected, then it can change our feelings. So with cognitive behavioral therapy, the first step is to become aware of the thoughts we have. So when we are, let's say, walking past a group of people and they are laughing, one of the automatic thoughts you might have is "They're laughing at me." But CBT trains you to be like, "Woah, woah, woah. What? Wait, I remember now, thoughts are not always real. How do I actually know they're laughing at me? Am I reading their mind? Am I making an assumption?" And then you re-phrase that thought, "Well, maybe someone just told a funny joke," and that reframed thought leads to more positive feelings.
0:17:57.3 Amy Tran: So do you see how they're all connected? So basically, you just do that over and over again. So I would say, one of the most important things is to begin to actually look within yourself and be aware of your thoughts, and if you have trouble doing that... One of the things that I've been taught is when you notice the sudden shift in mood, immediately ask yourself, "What was I just thinking?" Because our thoughts trigger our emotions most of the time. When you're sitting there and then all of a sudden you just feel like, "Oh, I feel a little anxious or sad," just ask yourself, "What was I just thinking?" And that automatic thought is a clue of what your core belief is, and you just do that over and over again, and look...
0:18:41.0 Mischa Z: Can you give me a quick example of that, of inaction, or for you or for me, or...
0:18:47.7 Amy Tran: What do you mean inaction?
0:18:50.4 Mischa Z: Or like, give me a real life example of that. I know you did with... Of like... Perhaps recently, you've felt... You've noticed that shift in feeling and so...
0:19:07.4 Amy Tran: Oh, yes.
0:19:08.2 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah.
0:19:09.7 Amy Tran: Yes, yes. Okay. So yeah, so me and my partner, we were just hanging out and he was doing his own thing, I was doing my own thing. And then I noticed that the sense of dread, almost, I was like, "What was I just thinking?" And I thought for a second, and my thought was that he is purposely avoiding me because he doesn't love me anymore.
0:19:39.0 Mischa Z: Okay.
0:19:39.2 Amy Tran: Right?
0:19:39.5 Mischa Z: Yes.
0:19:39.6 Amy Tran: So then, instead of picking a fight or trying to act out, I just took a step back and I was like, "Okay, let's challenge this thought. What evidence do I have? What evidence am I missing? What's an alternative explanation? Am I reading his mind?" So I didn't act on that thought, it turns out he was just tired from working, and had a bad day. [chuckle] But it's interesting because I had that automatic thought, and where did that thought come from? My core belief of being unlovable, of being worthless. So if your core belief is always firing off these automatic thoughts, they shape the way you view the world. Right? And if we leave the thoughts unchecked, they will take over your life.
0:20:27.0 Mischa Z: Okay, cool. So you're strategically or... I don't know if strategically is the right word. You're training yourself to catch the thoughts and then evaluate the trail of that thought, or am I saying that right?
0:20:45.7 Amy Tran: Exactly.
0:20:46.1 Mischa Z: Yeah.
0:20:46.3 Amy Tran: Exactly. So the Mooditude app, whenever you have a triggering thought, you can open the app and you can check... Rate how you're feeling, you can write what you were thinking about and the specific topic, so was it relationship, work, family that was triggering you, and then it tracks it all for you, so then you can look at it over time and look for those patterns. Yeah.
0:21:11.5 Mischa Z: Awesome, awesome. So I'm just looking at notes I was taking. So become aware of what you're thinking was sort of step, step one, shall we say. And it sounds like for me, that's even inventory, that write it down, get used to literally like, "Alright. What was I thinking? What are my thoughts?" Yes. Yeah.
0:21:35.1 Amy Tran: Yeah. As most of the time we go through life on autopilot, right. Have you ever... [chuckle] You've walked down a flight of stairs, and you're like, "How did I get here? Why am I here?" [chuckle] It's 'cause your brain is just chattering, it's just... You're in there. You were thinking about the past and future, we're very rarely in the present moment. And actually, looking at your feet going down the steps, right? And you end up on a different flight of your house, you're like, "What the heck, how did I get here?"
0:22:02.2 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah, cool. Or not cool, but cool that we can change that. So you have your MA, which is your masters?
0:22:13.8 Amy Tran: Yes.
0:22:14.4 Mischa Z: Okay, awesome. And working on your doctorate and so, you've been pretty deep in this sort of field for, I don't know what, five, 10 years, something like that?
0:22:26.6 Amy Tran: In the graduate program, about five years, yeah, maybe four years for undergrad.
0:22:33.3 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah. And so, there are studies backing up CBT, I'm assuming, cognitive behavioral therapy, and then a little bit of work can lead to profound shifts? That's my question. Is that... Or that's a statement. Is that true?
0:22:52.7 Amy Tran: "A little bit of work can lead to profound shift." I would say that... That's a tricky question. It really depends on the person, right? So for some people, they are more open to exploring the thoughts that they have. But there also are people who are really afraid of their own thoughts, right? Or they are not honest with themselves, which is okay. So for those folks that may be harder to monitor their own thinking and come face-to-face with what they're thinking, that can be hard.
0:23:27.9 Mischa Z: Any, any strategies to help with that?
0:23:34.6 Amy Tran: I would... To help with being more open to your own thinking, I would say that there would be two, right? So I would say that sometimes people are worried about exploring their own thinking because it's going to trigger an intense emotion. So I think that one helpful thing to think about or prepare is coping tools, right? So find what works for you to bring you from a hot moment to a cooler moment. So if you notice that what you're feeling or what you're thinking is getting you quite upset and you don't wanna do it anymore, I think it's important for people to have a strategy to calm down, that might be like deep breathing or meditation.
0:24:24.5 Amy Tran: And then my second thing is to practice self-compassion, right. So yeah, some of the thoughts that we have about ourselves or the world can be upsetting, but our thoughts are not always real, and I think our mindfulness can be really helpful because we can monitor... You can monitor your thinking without really attaching to it, and you can also be compassionate and non-judgmental. So mindfulness is an entire thing that we can probably talk about for like three hours [chuckle] but there's a lot of resources online, and I think that mindfulness will not only help people be more compassionate and non-judgmental, but I think it will also help you notice your thoughts even more because it's the practice of awareness. Yeah.
0:25:13.9 Mischa Z: Yeah. And I think the more we confront, and I don't know if confront is the right word, or just bring awareness to our thoughts, the more they hold less weight.
0:25:27.4 Amy Tran: Right, totally. Yeah.
0:25:29.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:25:31.8 Amy Tran: Our entire identity... I agree totally with multiple identities. Our entire identity is basically just stories and stories are just a string of words and pictures. Right?
0:25:42.2 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah.
0:25:43.1 Amy Tran: So we can let go of that.
0:25:45.4 Mischa Z: Yes.
[laughter]
0:25:47.4 Mischa Z: I wanted to ask, I've got two things, and I'm thinking, I had an idea for the advanced bonus session that everybody's doing, and I'm thinking... And maybe you can tell me now if you think this is worth talking about. But I think where as parents, one thing that I noticed... Like when both my parents died, I went through a divorce, financial upheaval, like I was having to move houses, lots of chaos. And I had two young boys and at one point it really hit me, I was like, "Oh my God, they went through that with me." And I think in hindsight, I could have... What I want you to maybe address, and I think we should save it for the bonus session, and you can tell me if you think it's worth talking about. And I wrote it down is, "What's an important for a parent to be cognizant of for their kids, or how do you nurture or hold space or help kids deal with?" I know this is a broad topic and loaded, but it's like, I think as parents when we're going through hard times... I'll speak for me. As a parent when I was going through hard times, how do I hold space for my kids? What do you think about that as kind of a...
0:27:11.2 Amy Tran: Yeah, I love that topic so much. My training is in youth, like working with youth, so yeah, I would love to talk about that.
0:27:19.5 Mischa Z: Yeah, I think that would be awesome, and I think it would be very useful because I think there's a lot of us men in our 40s or what have you who... We're a little self-centered. [laughter]
0:27:32.5 Amy Tran: Right. Yeah. Well, not only self...
0:27:35.2 Mischa Z: Said with love.
0:27:35.5 Amy Tran: So not only self-centered, but also modeling what they think society wants men to be, so.
0:27:44.6 Mischa Z: Yes, yes. Awesome, so before we hit stop and get to that though, I'm curious and go ahead, were you gonna write down a note? It looks like...
0:27:52.9 Amy Tran: Well, I was just writing down what I'm gonna talk about in the bonus session. [laughter]
0:27:57.5 Mischa Z: Yeah, perfect. So I'm curious what you... What do you think it is that draws your Instagram account or your Doodled Wellness clearly is a powerful, a powerful place for people to go, and it's drawing people in, and it's clearly a catalyst for change and goodness and stuff and... What do you think it is? What... Just like briefly, what do you think it is? What do you think is coming through there? Does that question make sense, or...
0:28:31.3 Amy Tran: It definitely makes sense, but it's a hard question because sometimes, to be honest, I'm like, "I don't even know, I'm just putting it together because this is just me." But if I can step outside of myself as the creator and look at it, I would say that it's... The colors and the way that it's presented is bright and friendly and non-intimidating, that it almost lowers like a layer of defensiveness down. And I don't know if that's true. I haven't done a study on it or anything like that. But I try to make content that's affirming and positive and that sets the colors scheme. But then sometimes I talk about some stuff that really does invite people to do some self-reflection and what they may find or what that I'm inviting them... Where I'm inviting them to go may be a hard place to go. But then while they are on the feed and looking at it, I still think that it's bright and just warm and inviting, so I just think it's a happy place. And I think it's because I actually do believe in the potential for people to flourish and to unlearn what they have learned, uncondition the conditioning of their brain. I really do feel like that's possible and I want more and more people to realize that.
0:30:11.5 Mischa Z: I love that. That's a beautiful answer. Thank you so much for that. And as I... It's fun to click on a post and sort of look at the... Who's interacting with you, and it seems like, which I think is super cool, as a pretty broad spectrum of people. Would you say that that's true?
0:30:33.6 Amy Tran: Yeah, definitely.
0:30:35.7 Mischa Z: Yeah, that's awesome.
0:30:36.8 Amy Tran: Yeah, and I...
0:30:36.9 Mischa Z: Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
0:30:37.7 Amy Tran: And I... Oh no, that's okay. And I also think that one thing that I have noticed too is that more and more teens are noticing the feed because it is quite, I don't wanna say childish, but maybe playful. And I think that's like, I'm just so grateful and honored for them to be there because at that point in our lives we're just so malleable and there's just so much proactive work to be done.
0:31:04.3 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, fantastic. Amy, we're gonna, we're gonna end. I think that's a beautiful place to end round one. So if this interview with Amy Tran was fantastic, and you want to get even more content from Amy, which is gonna be amazing, I already know the bonus session is gonna be beautiful, upgrade to the All Access Pass for that bonus interview. And Amy, any final thoughts to share that we did not get a chance to cover?
0:31:39.2 Amy Tran: No, but I'll leave everyone with a quote, which is, "Awareness is the first step towards healing," well.
0:31:47.6 Mischa Z: Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much, Amy. This has been a ton of fun round one, I'm very excited for round two. And a reminder to everybody, you can find Amy@doodledwellness.com and @doodledwellness on Instagram. And we'll see everybody in the VIP section.
0:32:10.2 Amy Tran: Ciao!
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